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张博文: 以“群岛的特性”组织多样的具身实践

Bowen Zhang:
Organizing Various Embodied Practise by the Nature of Archipelago



Interviewer: starry
Date: 05/29/2024

Keywords: narrative / history / social activism / fisheries / labor



张博文，艺术家、组织者，现工作生活于伦敦和舟山。2024 年毕业于 Slade MA Fine Art Media 专业。艺术家主导策展项目Small-Time Project 的 50%，伦敦中文艺术批判社群 West SecretSociety (WSS)发起者。作为广义上的艺术家，他现阶段的创作灵感来源于其家庭与渔业和体力劳动的紧密关系，作为岛民和长期旅行，居者的身份认同，以及对身体力行的执念和对当下触手可及的信息 (文本、图像、语境、事件等)的思考。他的创作深入探讨了有关渔业、劳动、性别、阶级、叙事/历史之间的联系以及旅游尤其是农村地区的休闲游和探险旅游与浪漫化、表演性之间的关系。博文的创作媒介跨越了物品制作、写作、社会活动和行动等，参与的展览/策展项目/工作坊 /Critique 发生在伦敦、舟山、悉尼，部分奖项和入围有:Sarabande Emerging Artist Fund (2024),Slade EDI Grant (2023&2024)，Jeanne Szego Travel Award(2023)， Runner-up for lvan Juritz Prize (2024), Short-listed forBloomsbury Festival (2023)


Bowen Zhang (B. Zhoushan) is an artist and organizer currently based in London and the Zhoushan Archipelago. He graduated from the Slade School of Fine Art with an MA in Fine Art Media in 2024. He is co-director of the artist-led curatorial project Small-Time Project and founder of the London-based Chinese art critique community West Secret Society (WSS). As a broadly defined artist, his current creative inspiration comes from his family's close ties to the fishing industry and physical labor, his identity as an islander and long-term traveler/resident, as well as his obsession with hands-on practice and reflections on readily available information (texts, images, contexts, events, etc.). His work deeply explores the connections between fisheries, labor, gender, class, narrative/history, and the relationship between tourism—especially rural leisure and adventure tourism—and romanticization and performativity. Bowen's creative mediums span object-making, writing, social activism, and actions. He has participated in exhibitions/curatorial projects/workshops/critiques in London, Zhoushan, and Sydney. Some of his awards and nominations include the Sarabande Emerging Artist Fund (2024), Slade EDI Grant (2023 & 2024), Jeanne Szego Travel Award (2023), Runner-up for Ivan Juritz Prize (2024), and Short-listed for Bloomsbury Festival (2023).





A:  Slade Degree Show上展出的项目如何展示了你近两年的学习和创作？你的研究和创作方法是什么？

A: How did the projects exhibited at the Slade Degree Show demonstrate your learning and creation over the past two years? What are your research and creation methods?


B:  毕业展上展出的 “Ship Mountain Project” (2023–Present)是一个进行了快两年的项目。我想象并运用了群岛的特性（the nature of the archipelago），以一种相对去中心化（decentralized）、去阶级化（non-hierarchical）的方式来组织、发展和展示自己的实践。这个创作模式主要是受个人经历、思考模式、以及文本/想法摄入的影响。我在创作过程中常常无限想一出是一出，但是系统化收集自己想的每一出，再制定超出自己荷载能力的计划去执行。创作过程更像一个网络，但是网络的比喻又不能体现创作时的杂乱、野蛮、信手拈来、尽力计划，所以使用了群岛作为比喻。

内容上，项目里会涉及在我的思考模式中合理但是在当代艺术主流语境中有逻辑断层或者说指代空隙的主题，包括渔业、编织、材料的研究与实验、批判制图学、旗帜的意义、孤立等等，也有不是非常成体系的、偏哲学概念的思考。相对于在空间里构建一或多套形成闭环逻辑的叙事，我更偏向于诗意的共存，然后与空间的体验者一起寻找潜在的联系。换句话说，我希望大家进入这个项目空间的时候，能根据自身经验捕捉到很多（离散）的概念，然后在进一步的空间探索过程中找到线索和联系。这是我一直作为艺术家也好作为观众也好希望推进的事情，无论任何背景的观众都可以以一个强力的姿态进入艺术空间，Ta们的解读不需要被所谓专业知识和审美素养所允许。

但就我个人而言，渔业、编织、旗帜等等“符号”都是和我成长背景息息相关的，我做艺术也不希望离开自己的主观认知或者个人经验。对我来说具身性（embodiment），就是你亲身去做这件事情很重要。我比较认同体化认知（embodied cognition）这个概念，你的行动是你认知过程的一部分，而不是你认知过程的结果。所以我相信身体力行在所有事件里的重要性，这又联系到我创作中对个人与劳动关系的思考，以及身体力行和劳动浪漫化的联系。这里你可以看到我对我创作模式的思考也会直接成为我创作内容的重要部分。搞艺术真有趣：）

B: “Ship Mountain Project” (2023–Present) exhibited at the graduation show is a project that has been ongoing for almost two years. I imagined and utilized the nature of the archipelago to organize, develop, and display my practice in a relatively decentralized and non-hierarchical manner. This mode of creation is mainly influenced by personal experiences, the mode of thinking, and the intake of texts/ideas. In the process of creation, I often come up with numerous ideas, but I systematically collect each one and then formulate plans that exceed my capacity to execute them. The creation process is more like a network, but the metaphor of a network can not capture the chaos, wildness, spontaneity, and efforts in planning during the creation. Therefore, I use the metaphor of an archipelago.

In terms of content, the project involves themes that are logical within my thought process but have gaps or referential voids in the mainstream contemporary art context. These themes include fisheries, weaving, material research and experimentation, critical cartography, the meaning of flags, isolation, and so on. There are also some not that systematic and more philosophical ideas. Rather than constructing one or multiple closed-loop narratives within the space, I prefer a poetic coexistence and seek potential connections together with the space's experiences. In other words, I hope that when people enter the project space, they can capture many (discrete) concepts based on their own experiences, and then find clues and connections through further spatial exploration. This is something I have always hoped to promote, both as an artist and as an audience member. Regardless of their background, I want audiences to enter the art space with a strong stance, where their interpretations do not need to be validated by so-called professional knowledge and aesthetic literacy.

For me personally, symbols like fisheries, weaving, and flags are closely related to my background. I don’t want to separate my art from my subjective perception or personal experience. Embodiment is very important to me—doing something yourself matters. I resonate with the concept of embodied cognition, where your actions are part of your cognitive process, not just the result of it. Therefore, I believe in the importance of hands-on practice in all events, which connects to my reflections on the relationship between individuals and labor in my work, as well as the link between hands-on practice and the romanticization of labor. Here, you can see that my reflections on my creative process directly become a significant part of my creative content. Creating art is fascinating indeed :)







Synthetic fishing - Yeah, that’s me ait，13x19x1cm，木框，玻璃，照片，2024重制版
Synthetic fishing - Yeah, that’s me ait, 13x19x1cm, wood, glass, photo，2024 remake



Ship Mountain Project展览现场，Slade School of Fine Art毕业展，英国伦敦，2024
Installation view of “Ship Mountain Project”, Slade School of Fine Art Degree Show, London, UK，2024





A: 你的展览空间分为室内室外两部分，在选择作品和利用包括室内、室外和楼梯角的空间中你想要呈现什么样的叙事和时空关系？

A: Your exhibition space is divided into indoor and outdoor sections. In selecting works and utilizing spaces, including indoors, outdoors, and stair corners, what kind of narrative and spatial-temporal relationships that you want audiences to engage with?


B: 如果叙事指一条或者多条主导于空间里的线性叙事的话，那肯定是没有的。作品中存在的叙事碎片可能更像是留足了空间的线索，邀请观众自己去想，去构建。虽然在我脑子里可能是有几条主要的叙事线的，但是我不想掌握这个话语权。

我一开始就跟系主任说我需要一个有建筑复杂性、比较大的空间，因为我作品的体量也比较大，且我对建筑结构本身的含义也感兴趣。很幸运他给了我最想要的空间。 其中楼梯角下的空间本来就自带很多含义，比如将夹角作为储藏室而被视为高效利用空间，这在流行文化里就有很多例子（如电影《哈利波特》或者“租给大学生”等），这种实践和文化现象又赋予这个空间不一样的质感：挤压/不平等、受限制等。在这样的条件下，对它进行改造就很好玩，有很多操作空间。

其次我比较喜欢建东西，就像之前讲的那种身体力行的感觉。有的时候我建东西是为了给自己一个理由践行劳动，也就是为了建而建。我一直觉得在艺术学校和装置艺术的语境里做劳动很好玩，是一种无用功，或者说是一种非生产性劳动。但在拿起电钻或者锤子的一瞬间，你的行为也会被概念所缠绕，因为你作为劳动者非常清楚自己所在的环境和这个劳动产出的语境。

因为上述的思考，我在里面又建了一个形状一致但材料质感不同的空间。在这个夹角空间的改造过程里，我先用了极具临时性的结构性材料来营造氛围，像是防水布、木板，生锈铁板等。随后，为了顺应作品本身对于劳动、非代表性（non-representational）计时和孤立（isolation）的讨论，我又加入了一系列的现成品和部分作品来推动我的行动（Action）：在每天的随机时间里，我会进入空间在墙上写“正”字。在中文语境里“正”字和计时计数有很大联系。对于“正”字的书写时常用来指代另一个时间或数量，但在这个语境里面，我写“正”字这个行为就是在记录写“正”字的时间而已。“正”作为“写”这个行为或者劳动的产出直接反应了劳动的时间和成果，这是我对当下社会中工时、劳动产出、薪资关系的一些小的想法和回应。且时间和孤立（isolation）也有很大的关系，这个方面会在我之后要做的关于远洋渔业的项目里得到更多的探索。

楼梯角空间门口挂了个表格，它是一张“工作的工作表”（worksheet for work）。从布展开始到展览结束，所有在这个空间里进行的劳动都会被记录在上面，对于劳动的界定由劳动者决定。有的观众也来写了，比如说一个趴在楼梯间，面朝下一动不动睡了一个小时的观众大哥：）

B: If narrative refers to one or more dominant linear narratives within the space, then there definitely isn't one. The narrative fragments present in the works might serve more as clues, leaving enough room for the audience to think and construct their own interpretations. Although I might have several main narrative lines in my mind, I don't want to control this discourse.

At first, I told the department head that I needed a large space with architectural complexity because my works are quite large-scale, and I am also interested in the meaning of architectural structures themselves. Luckily, he gave me the space I most wanted. As part of it, the space under the stairwell inherently carries a lot of meaning. Using the angle as a storage room and viewing it as an efficient use of space is common in popular culture (such as in the movie “Harry Potter” or sayings like "renting to college students"). This practice and cultural phenomenon give the space a different texture: compression/inequality, restriction, etc. Under such conditions, modifying it becomes really interesting, providing a lot of room for creative manipulation.

Besides, I quite enjoy building things, as it gives me that hands-on feeling I mentioned earlier. Sometimes, building things just gives me a reason to engage in labor—for the sake of building itself. I've always found it interesting to do labor in the context of art school and installation. It feels like a kind of futile effort, or non-productive labor. However, the moment you pick up a drill or a hammer, your actions become intertwined with concepts, because as a laborer, you are acutely aware of your environment and the context of the labor's output.

Due to the above considerations, I created a space within the stairwell that has the same shape but different material textures. In the process of transforming this corner space, I first used highly temporary structural materials to create certain atmosphere, such as waterproof cloth, wooden planks, and rusty iron sheets. Then, to align with the work's discussion on labor, non-representational timekeeping, and isolation, I added a series of ready-made objects and some my art pieces to drive my action: at random times each day, I enter the space to write the character “Zheng (正)” on the wall. In the Chinese context, the character "正" is closely associated with timekeeping and counting. Writing "正" is often used to denote another time or quantity, but in this context, my act of writing "正" is simply recording the time spent writing it. "正," as the output of the act of writing or labor, directly reflects the time and outcome of the labor. This is my small response to the relationships between working hours, labor output, and wages in contemporary society. Additionally, time and isolation are significantly related, which is an aspect I will further explore in my upcoming project on deep-sea fishing.

At the entrance of the stairwell space, I hung a worksheet for work. From the beginning of the installation to the end of the exhibition, all labor conducted in this space is recorded on it, while the definition of labor was determined by the laborer. Some audience members have also contributed to it, such as one visitor who lay face down in the stairwell for an hour without moving.







Ship Mountain - The Marking of the Unspecific Time，空间装置，钢，铁锈，木材，防水布，二手车库灯，雕刻装置，地毯，旗帜，收音机，2024
Ship Mountain - The Marking of the Unspecific Time, room installation, steel, rust, wood, tarp, used garage lamp, carving device, rug, flags, radio，2024
Ship Mountain - Work Sheet for Work，23x32cm，纸质图表，夹板
Ship Mountain - Work Sheet for Work, 23x32cm, paper sheet, clipboard，2024





A: 你在装置中使用了很多与海洋和渔业相关的材料比如盐和铁锈，而你是如何处理这些材料的物质性并使其更贴合特定作品的表达的？

A: You used many materials related to the ocean and fisheries in your installation, such as salt and rust. How did you consider the materiality of them to fit the expression of specific works?


B: 材料的使用是从生活环境里所看到相关图像，还有触感、味觉，以及围绕材料特性的对话出发的。我觉得盐和铁锈都有很强的时间性，并且还往往是对另一个主体的附加，比如盐在什么上结晶，把盐撒在什么上。而铁锈是附着于钢铁，被铁锈附着了以后，钢铁的性质发生了什么样的改变，是不是生锈的东西在现有秩序下是劣等的。在个人创作里，我把它们作为讨论的主体，从我和材料的长时间的相处中找灵感。比如说用丝网印刷把铁锈作为图像印在钢板上，比如用浓盐水浸泡我织的网，共置2-3个月让盐结晶在网上改变网的形态和材质，再比如用盐和淀粉制作模块化的新材料——盐饼/板。

刨去对于材料性的实验，在我探讨的语境里，这个创作过程和物质产出的含义还和劳动、时间、雇佣关系有很大的联系。在做某些作品的时候，材料本身付出的劳动甚至比我付出的还要多，在等待结晶和生锈的过程中我们仿佛进入了一种合作关系，或者像他们在给我打工一样：我只要把他们放在那边，“劳动”这个现象就会发生。在这种情景里，我对产出结果的控制仿佛变小了；但是如果我改变我的心态，ta们不管产出什么都可以是我想要的。这样的模式和现在社会的雇佣体制有什么关系，对我来说也值得思考。

B: The use of materials stems from the images seen in my living environment, as well as their tactile and taste qualities, and the conversations surrounding their characteristics. I think that both salt and rust have a strong sense of time and often serve as additional to another entity—for instance, salt crystalizing on something, or sprinkling salt somewhere. And how rust adheres to steel and alters its properties, is something that has rusted considered inferior in today’s order? In my creations, I treat these materials as subjects of discussion, drawing inspiration from my long-term interaction with them. For example, I use screen printing to print rust as an image on steel plates. I soak my woven nets in concentrated saltwater for 2-3 months, allowing salt to crystallize and change the form and texture of the nets. I also create new modular materials from salt and starch, including salt cakes/boards.

Aside from the experiments of material, in the context I explore, the meaning of the creation process and the material output is also closely related to labor, time, and employment relationships. In making certain works, the labor exerted by the materials themselves is sometimes even greater than what I put in. During the waiting periods for crystallization and rusting, it feels as if we enter a collaborative relationship, almost like they are working for me: I just need to place them there, and the phenomenon of "labor" will occur. In this scenario, my control over the outcome seems to diminish; however, if I change my mindset, whatever they produce can be what I desire. It's also worth reflecting on how this model relates to the current employment system in society.






Detail of Ship Mountain - Ungifted triangle plinth and salt net（细节图），尺寸可变， 钢，手缝网，盐，2024
Ship Mountain - Ungifted triangle plinth and salt net (detail), dimensions variable, steel, hand-sewn net, salt，2024
Ship Mountain - can you bake me a salt pie?，25x25x1cm，盐，淀粉，水，铁锈粉，喷漆，2023
Ship Mountain - can you bake me a salt pie?, 25x25x1cm, salt, starch, water, rust powder, spray paint，2023





A: 如何解读“List of Ship Mountain Archipelago”，它字典式的归类背后是否有更深层的逻辑？“Ship Mountain Archive（2024–）”中的写作是你所习惯的创作方式吗？

A: How to interpret List of “Ship Mountain Archipelago”? Is there a deeper logic behind its dictionary-like categorization? Is the writing in the “Ship Mountain Archive (2024–)” a method you are accustomed to in your creative process?


B: “List of Ship Mountain Archipelago”更多是一种归档、囤积癖，是对关键词、想法和材料的收集。这个表格存在很多版本（内容/形式），也在不断更新中。每个条目所代表的事件在发生的时候是有时间线性的，但按照时间整理只会加固可能存在的模糊因果关系，而我想让这些词汇鼓励我思考些别的东西。我想到了以前背单词，就是用字母表的顺序归类的，会发现有很多无厘头的单词组合。这种随机性很让人感到兴奋。当我选用字母排序来组织表格的时候，就会发现很多有意思的并置，比如说S开头的词（Salted fish/ Salt water/ Sea creature/ Seafood/ Sewing/ Ship breaking）之间就存在很反向且藕断丝连的关系。对我来说这是一种非常高效且有趣的思维游戏。

“Ship Mountain Archive”的构建逻辑其实也和“List of Ship Mountain Archipelago”相似，主要区别在于囤积、分类、思考的内容从词汇变成了大段的文字、图像、片状的材料等，并且受到独立出版物和归档（Archive）的影响。

我一直觉得写作很重要，但在展览里写作又像一个分水岭。就我个人而言，我基本不会在看群展的时候读任何人的写作，除非我对ta非常感兴趣。我更多的是体会这个展览本身给我带来的审美体验。但作为艺术家，我又很爱写，也把写作作为我的一个重要创作方式和艺术产出。文本里包含的信息密度更高，也能让观众更加了解我的研究和思考。在这个展览里我就把Ship Mountain Archive作为一个可以启动的雕塑/物件放置在空间中，启动后就具有非常厚实的文本。这是我在尝试做一个的平衡，希望观众有接触我的叙事的机会，但又把这个机会放在一个不会冲撞展览其他部分且不会作为解释性文本存在的位置。

B: “List of Ship Mountain Archipelago” is more about archiving and hoarding—it’s a collection of keywords, ideas, and materials. This list exists in many versions (both in content and form) and is continually being updated. Each entry represents events that, when they occurred, had a linear timeline. However, organizing them chronologically would reinforce any potentially vague causal relationships, whereas I want these terms to encourage me to think about other things.

I thought about how I used to memorize words that alphabetical categorization would lead to many nonsensical word combinations. This randomness is quite exciting. When I chose to organize the list alphabetically, I discovered many interesting juxtapositions. For example, the words starting with 'S' (Salted fish, Salt water, Sea creature, Seafood, Sewing, Ship breaking) have a paradoxical yet interconnected relationship. For me, this is a highly efficient and enjoyable thinking exercise.

The construction logic of the Ship Mountain Archive is actually similar to the “List of Ship Mountain Archipelago”. The main difference is that the hoarding, categorizing, and thinking content has shifted from words to large chunks of text, images, and fragmentary materials, influenced by independent publications and archive.

I have always considered writing important, but in an exhibition, writing can act as a dividing line. Personally, I hardly read anyone's writing when I visit group exhibitions unless I am particularly interested in the artist. I tend to focus more on the aesthetic experience the exhibition provides. However, as an artist, I love writing and consider it an important part of my creative process and artistic output. Texts contain a higher density of information and can give the audience a deeper understanding of my research and thoughts. In this exhibition, I placed the “Ship Mountain Archive” as an activatable sculpture/object in the space. When activated, it offers substantial text. This is my attempt at creating a balance, giving the audience an opportunity to engage with my narrative without disrupting other parts of the exhibition or serving only as explanatory text.






Ship Mountain - The Wall is Never Innocent，2.8x1x0.5m，木材，胶合板，砖块，岩石，盐渍和生锈的金属，蚀刻铜板，礼品，Ship Mountain Archive，2024
Ship Mountain - The Wall is Never Innocent,2.8x1x0.5m, timber, plywood, bricks, rock, salted & rusted metal, photo-etched copper plate, gift, Ship Mountain Archive，2024



Ship Mountain Archive (2024-?)




A: 你的作品及记录有很多发生在乡村或沿海的自然环境中，对于以城市为中心的当代艺术，你认为讨论这些空间意味着什么？

A: Many of your works and records occur in rural or coastal natural environments. What do you think discussing these spaces means for contemporary art, which is often centered around urban areas?


B: 其实我并不觉得当代艺术以城市为中心，当代艺术也没有/不该有中心。

在我所关注的内容里面，大家更偏向去讨论一些城市以外的东西，其中一个我特别感兴趣的就是对于乡村的浪漫化，更具体的说是这个主题直接联系到的农家乐/乡村旅游。由于旅行者、当地居民、空间三者被赋予了某种期待，所以ta们都通过不同程度上的表演构建了一个旅行空间。我对农家乐要抱有比较矛盾的情感，一方面ta带来了经济发展和当地居民生活水平的提升；另一方面对农村住户生活空间构成挤压和景观化。

另外很多作品在乡村或者说郊外发生也跟我个人性格有关，我不太喜欢在有很多人的地方做创作。我称我的很多作品为行动（action）而不是行为（performance）是因为performance指出了舞台和观众的存在，意味着要创造一个艺术家和观众的场域。我的作品叫action是因为我无所谓旁边的人是否真的注意到我作为艺术家的存在，或者他注意到我之后是否将我的举动归类为艺术。对我来说更重要是在特定的空间里做特定的事，在这个前提下被人看见、并引发思考是一个幸运的事。

B: Actually, I don't believe contemporary art is centered around cities, nor should it have a center. In the content I focus on, people tend to discuss things outside urban areas. One topic I find particularly interesting is the romanticization of the countryside, specifically in relation to agritourism/rural tourism. Travelers, local residents, and spaces are all imbued with certain expectations, so they construct a travel space through certain performativity. I have mixed feelings about agritourism. On one hand, it brings economic development and improves the living standards of local residents; on the other hand, it compresses and landscapes the living spaces of rural inhabitants.

Additionally, many of my works taking place in rural or suburban areas also relate to my personality; I don't particularly enjoy creating in crowded places. I refer to many of my works as "actions" rather than "performances" because "performance" implies a stage and an audience, meaning the creation of a space between the artist and the audience. I call my works "actions" because I don't care whether people around me notice my presence as an artist or if they classify my actions as art once they do notice. What's more important to me is doing specific things in specific spaces. Under this premise, being seen and sparking thought is a fortunate outcome.









Crawl across the sea，行动，2021
Crawl across the sea, Action，2021





Body water equilibrium I （影像静帧），行动记录，3:53，2021
Body water equilibrium I (video still), action video, 3:53，2021





A: 现在更加谱系学的研究和早期创作关注相对日常的感知，在你看来会是什么样的关系？

A: How do you see the relationship between your current genealogical research and your earlier focus on relatively everyday perceptions in your creative work?


B: 产生这样的变化一方面是因为我以前没有字面意思上的创作空间，这个前提条件把我推到了一个主要和特定地点、现成品、行动互动的创作模式。然后刚开始做创作，会比较直接，也有很大摸索的感觉。我非常享受那段时间。想到最近Francis Alÿs在Barbican展出的作品，从他现在他所拍摄关于儿童游戏的影像里也能看到他最初做的行为艺术的影子——他一直在执行/记录一个具体规则和地点下发生的行动。类似地，虽然我的作品产出形式有很大的转变，但是以前的实践对我现阶段的创作是有很大的影响的。

B: This shift occurred partly because I didn't have a literal creative space before, which pushed me into a mode of creating that primarily involved interacting with specific locations, found objects, and actions. In the beginning, my approach was more straightforward and exploratory, and I thoroughly enjoyed that period. I recall Francis Alÿs's recent exhibition at the Barbican, where the videos of children's games he currently films still carry the essence of his early performance art—he continues to execute and document actions within a specific set of rules and locations. Similarly, although the form of my work has significantly evolved, my previous practices have greatly influenced my current creations.






Necessary conditions for wave formation – Tunnel（影像静帧），影像，30:14，2021
Necessary conditions for wave formation – Tunnel (video still), video, 30:14，2021





A:“Ship Mountain”中展现了渔业劳作的场景，你的早期作品也多以身体作为媒介进行重复的、看似无用的劳动，这一线索在你的创作中有什么样的发展？

 A: “Ship Mountain” depicts scenes of fisheries labor, and your early works often used the body as a medium for repetitive, seemingly useless labor. How has this thread developed in your creations?


B: 因为成长环境，我经常目睹劳动这件事情，体力劳动对我来说一直有很强的视觉存在感。但是家人会把我推到身体力行劳动之外，因为觉得读书第一，干苦力活可能是更低一等的。所以现在做艺术时会想用身体力行的方式了解劳动这个概念，来补充之前作为观众的经验。还有小时候耳濡目染的“劳动最光荣”、 “尊重农民伯伯”和体力劳动者面对的社会现状也很值得思考。

我之前没有主观地想要延续这条线索，但最近才发现这是一个持续的联系， “看似无用的劳动”在我看来是做艺术的现状，一种非生产性劳动，这种劳动在主流价值体系里没有被认同。我天真地希望继续我的非生产性劳动，能做非市场引导的艺术。（如果这种艺术真的存在，毕竟现在通过机构和奖金生存的艺术家也不免受到资金背后价值观的影响）。再说，如果有利可图，这个社会还是可以找到各种方式去市场化艺术 –– 毕竟在上个世纪行为艺术被寄予了挑战和脱离市场的厚望，但是很快还是被资本主义社会的逻辑所瓦解吞噬。所以持续非生产性劳动和找到一个不受困于市场逻辑但又可持续发展的模式对我来说很重要，我会一直花时间思考。

B: Due to my upbringing, I frequently witnessed labor, and physical labor has always had a strong visual presence for me. However, my family pushed me away from physical labor, believing that academic pursuits were more significant and that manual labor was somehow inferior. In my current artistic practice, I aim to understand the concept of labor through physical engagement, supplementing my previous experiences as an observer. Additionally, the values instilled in me as a child, such as "labor is the most glorious" and "respect the farmers," alongside the current social realities faced by manual laborers, are themes I find deeply worthy of exploration and reflection.

I didn't intentionally continue this thread before, but I recently realized it's a persistent connection. To me, "seemingly useless labor" reflects the current state of making art—a form of non-productive labor not recognized by mainstream value systems. I naively hope to continue my non-productive labor and create art that isn't market-driven. (If such art truly exists, since even artists who survive through institutions and grants are influenced by the values behind the funding). Moreover, if there's profit to be made, society will always find ways to commercialize art. In the last century, performance art was expected to challenge and break away from the market, but it quickly merged into capitalist logic. Therefore, it is crucial for me to maintain non-productive labor and find a sustainable model of development that is free from market constraints, and I will continue to ponder this.






Labor（影像静帧），行动记录，4:58，2021
Labor (video still), action video, 4:58，2021





A: Action Guide Organization将你个人介入日常生活的的实践延伸到更广的群体中，并更强调“再阐释 （re-enactment）”的概念，在具体的生活实践中，二者（intervention/re-enactment）最大的区别是什么？

A: Action Guide Organization extends your personal intervention in everyday life to a larger group and emphasizes the concept of "re-enactment." What is the main difference between intervention and re-enactment in the context of specific life practices?


B: 这个项目目前对我来说是“失败”的，因为它对于公共空间的干预不到位，而这又是这个项目核心的企图之一，所以我想过一段时间，等我有更高可信度和知名度的时候，再重新去做。这个项目先是在行为表演工作坊进行的，在那样的情况下很成功，所有人都愿意互动，但它不是一个公共空间，全都是对艺术感兴趣的艺术家来参与，所以大家反应很好。第二次是在一个剧场里面做的，它更像一个公共空间，这次的反馈就会差很多，虽然大家会拿写有指示的卡，但是他们并不会对我这个项目的主旨进行互动，可能他们会思考，但是不会真的去回应我这个行为，也没有给我提供反馈。

再讲为什么是re-enactment，因为我以前做的performance或者action也好，做着做着就发现我做的所有东西之前都有人做过类似的，然后就在想我做的还有意义吗？后来觉得还是有意义的，因为在不同的语境里做完全一模一样的事情，产生的意义也是不一样的，所以不能只看action这个行动本身，要看ta所在的语境。于是我就想到了re-enactment，并且希望用这个形式，和大量产生的行动之间的关系来引发人们对原创性的阶级（hierarchy of originality）和想法的所有权（ownership of ideas）的思考。

简单来说，Action Guide Organization就是对构建去中心化组织的线下尝试，ta主要做的事情就是把发生过的行动文本化，然后发放给大家。这个文本是一种激起行动的倡议，比如说：“write about someone you meet while traveling”。选择在阅读文本后行动的人就产出了新的行动，同时也可以被再次文本化。循环反复就产生了有千丝万缕联系的扁平的行动网络，但是它们之间的关系又不是单纯的因果关系。这又回到我之前讲的整个“Ship Mountain Project”的发展哲学，即去中心化和非阶级性的概念。

B: Currently, I consider this project a "failure" because it didn't effectively intervene in public space, which was a core aim of the project. I plan to revisit it when I have higher credibility and recognition. Initially, the project was conducted in a performance workshop and was very successful; everyone was willing to interact, but it wasn't a public space—it majorly involved artists interested in art, so the response was great. The second time, it was in a theater, which is more like a public space, and the feedback was much less positive. Although people took the instruction cards, they didn't interact with the project's main objective. They might have thought about it, but they didn't truly engage with the action or provide feedback.

To explain why it's re-enactment: when I was doing performances or actions previously, I realized that everything I did had been done similarly by others before. This led me to question whether what I was doing is still meaningful. Eventually, I concluded that it does have meaning because doing the exact same thing in a different context generates different significance. Therefore, it's not just about the action itself but about the context in which it occurs. This realization led me to the concept of re-enactment, which I hope to use to provoke thoughts about the hierarchy of originality and the ownership of ideas through the networks of numerous actions.

Simply put, Action Guide Organization is an offline attempt at creating a decentralized organization. Primarily it textualizes past actions and distributes these texts to people. The text serves as a prompt for action, such as: "Write about someone you meet while traveling." Those who choose to act after reading the text produce new actions, which can also be textualized. This cyclical process generates a flat network of interconnected actions, but their relationships are not purely causal. This ties back to the philosophy behind the development of the “Ship Mountain Project”, which emphasizes decentralization and non-hierarchy.





Action Guide设计/Action Guide Design
Platform 1 活动现场，2023，Bloomsbury Theatre & Studio，英国伦敦/Platform 1, 2023, Bloomsbury Theatre & Studio, London, UK
Performance Workshop 活动现场，2022，Slade School of Fine Art，英国伦敦/ Performance Workshop, 2022, Slade School of Fine Art, London, UK
Action Guide Card





A: 今年开始你陆续进行了一些策展项目，都与艺术家群体的生存与实践有关，你是如何开始去规划这些项目，你的“策展”方法论是什么样的，对你个人的创作会有什么样的影响？

A: This year, you have been involved in several curatorial projects related to the survival and practice of artist communities. How did you start planning these projects, what is your curatorial methodology, and how does it impact your personal work?


B: 之前提到我很喜欢身体力行，如果我觉得学校或者艺术生态没有给我提供这个机会，我就自己去做，我比较相信这样的方式。我感觉艺术家机会特别少，空间特别少，资金特别少，那就想方法克服现状做展览。主题上来说，因为我是艺术家，我能理解艺术家遭受的普遍困境，所以我会选择更加能支持到艺术家的命题。我组织的展览都关注年轻艺术家生存现状，并以提供展览机会和社群的形式支持ta们。

我没有特别的策展方法论，但是我的策展受自己艺术创作方式的影响蛮大的。目前这三个展览我更愿意称自己为组织者，我作为艺术家，对艺术家和策展人的权力关系有自己的想法。在我目前所有的策展中，我们都是和艺术家一起去做，一起决定空间怎么设计，这让渡了一些权利，也让渡了一些责任，对我和一起策展的伙伴Jack来说也更加可行。

我会把策展或者组织任何活动都当成我艺术实践的一部分，甚至我策我自己的毕业展和策群展的方式都很相似。类似于群岛，大家作为不一样的艺术家，讨论的东西都不一样，但是你把作品并置在一起，无论如何就会彼此产生联系。所以目前策展对我来说更重要的是以我的方式支持艺术家，还有对艺术家生态的现状阐述。

B: As I mentioned before, I enjoy hands-on involvement. If I feel that the school or the art ecosystem isn't providing opportunities, I take the initiative and create them myself. I believe in this approach. I feel that opportunities for artists are particularly scarce—spaces and funding are limited—so I find ways to overcome these challenges, which is organizing exhibitions. Thematically, being an artist myself, I understand the common difficulties artists face, so I choose themes that better support artists. The exhibitions I organize focus on the survival conditions of young artists and support them by providing exhibition opportunities and building a community.

I don't have a specific curatorial methodology, but my curatorial approach is heavily influenced by my own artistic practice. For the three exhibitions I've organized so far, I prefer to call myself an organizer. As an artist, I have my own views on the power dynamics between artists and curators. In all my curatorial projects, we work collaboratively with the artists, deciding together how to design the space. This approach shares both power and responsibility at the same time, making it more feasible for me and my co-curator, Jack.

I consider curating or organizing any activity as part of my artistic practice. The way I curate my own graduation show and group exhibitions is very similar. It's like an archipelago, where different artists discuss different things, but when you place the works together, connections inevitably form. For me, curating is more about supporting artists in my own way and articulating the current state of the artist ecosystem.






Blue tack on a spike is no good展览现场，英国伦敦，2024
Installation view of “Blue tack on a spike is no good”, London, UK，2024





A: 成立West Secret Society的愿景是什么，为什么会取这样一个名字？

A: What is the vision behind establishing West Secret Society, and why did you choose this name?


B: 这个组织是一个年轻华语艺术家社群，它的主要活动形式是中文艺术批评会（Mandarin critique）。华人艺术家作品的阐释可能在西方艺术批评的语境下不成立，很多西方人把象征符号这套体系压到我们的作品上，有的他们时候会问你作品的切入点（accesses）在哪边？这让我觉得，我们会尝试理解你的体系，但你为什么不愿意花时间去理解、进入我们的语境，这对我来说是一个最大的问题。像之前说的，当我觉得环境无法给我提供足够支持的时候，我就自己做。

第一次critique就在我在伦敦西边的家进行（远到像去西天取经），所以有了West。Secret Society是因为我不把注意力放在如何让更多人貌合神离地加入，而是放在如何有好的讨论。 我们的讨论有的时候都是6个小时起，到场地关门然后出去买点酒吃点东西继续聊。越做越久就发现这个critique对长期参与者的艺术创作蛮重要的，而且我自己也是非常需要通过对话来推进自己作品的人，我的创作从中也获得了很大的帮助。

目前WSS已经申请到了三笔经费，所以我们偶尔会邀请在伦敦的华人艺术家来交流，也用了一部分做展览。现在这个组织的执行上加入了两个好朋友，我希望在未来我能申请到更多的资金，支持它继续发展下去。这个空间对我来说需要精心呵护，它是一个比较舒适的环境，让参与者可以具有批判性的畅所欲言。




WSS field trip to Eastbourne


B: This organization is a community for young Chinese-speaking artists, with its main activity being Mandarin critique sessions. The interpretation of works by Chinese artists might not always fit into the context of Western art criticism. Many Western viewers impose their symbolic systems on our works and sometimes ask where are the access of our works. This makes me feel that while we attempt to understand their systems, why are they unwilling to take the time to understand and enter our context? This, to me, is a significant issue. As I mentioned before, when I feel the environment doesn't provide enough support, I create my own.  

The first critique session was held at my home in the west of London (as far as a journey to the west), hence the name "West." "Secret Society" is because I don't focus on how to get more people to join superficially but on having discussions of high quality. Sometimes our discussions last at least six hours, continuing after the venue closes by getting some drinks and food. Over time, we've found that these critiques are very important for the long-term participants' art practices. Personally, I need dialogue to advance my work, and my creations have greatly benefited from these sessions.

Currently, WSS has secured three funding grants. We occasionally invite Chinese artists in London for exchanges and use some of the funds for exhibitions. Two close friends have recently joined the organization’s team for its execution. I hope to get more funding in the future to support its continued development. This space needs careful nurturing as it provides a comfortable environment for participants to express their critiques freely.








WSS critique with visiting Artist Mengyun Han



How to Play Hopscotch?展览现场，Koppel Collective，英国伦敦，2024
Installation view of “How to Play Hopscotch?” , Koppel Collective, London, UK，2024





A: 进行包括策展、AGO、WSS在内的自组织实践，英国的艺术生态给予了你什么样的支持，对其又是否有一些新的观察？

A: What kind of support has the British art ecosystem provided for your self-organized practices, including curating, AGO, and WSS, and have you made any new observations about it?


B: 支持还是有的但是很有限，比如我做WSS就是因为西方艺术语境没有给我们提供足够的支持，这个事情应该是由学校来做的，但现在却是我和我的同学在做，他们才给这么点资金，太合算了，太经济实惠了吧。但是骂归骂，英国的艺术生态（主要指创作者群体）目前来看还是相对最适合我的。

B: There is some support, but it's quite limited. For example, I started WSS because the Western art context didn't provide us with enough support. This should have been something handled by the school, but it's left to me and my peers to manage. While the amount of funding they provide is minimal, which is really cost-effective. Despite these critics, the British art ecosystem (primarily referring to the creator community) still seems to be relatively the most suitable for me at the moment.







Ship Mountain - Gifted Triangle Plinth，
礼物，钢，1.2x1.2x1.5m，2024
Ship Mountain - Gifted Triangle Plinth, 1.2x1.2x1.5m, gift, steel，2024



 A: 你在个人简介中提到希望在实践中运用“群岛的特性” ，在此阶段，你对这一概念是否有一些新的想法，又希望如何进一步发展它呢？是否可以透露一下未来的方向、研究和创作计划，或者相关的焦虑和担忧？

A: You mentioned wanting to apply the "nature of an archipelago" in your practice. At this stage, do you have any new thoughts on this concept, and how do you hope to further develop it? Can you share any future directions, research, and creative plans, or related anxieties and concerns?


B: 其中一个看法是，具有特定目标的去中心化线下组织在目前实践上来看非常难长期发展甚至形成，困难主要在于去中心化的松散结构中的权力关系和资本主义语境下高效的所需条件存在矛盾。但去中心化在艺术作品或者更具体的比如展览的语境中可能可以稍微实现一下。

未来的创作我会专心去做一个名叫“Ship Mountain – Are you on board? (Part 1) An Investigation on Becoming a Distant-Water Fishing Ship Crew Member”的项目，关于远洋渔业。它对我来说是非常有意思的产业，在中国只有两个地方有比较大型的远洋渔业基地，一个是山东威海，一个是浙江舟山，就是我家。我希望先了解这个产业的基层员工生态然后直接参与船上的工作，做隐秘艺术家身份的调研（covert research）。

其他的话，就是写毕业论文，计划申请博士，继续和Yulin、TT做WSS，和Jack做艺术家主导策展项目Small-Time Project，申展览/驻地/奖金，找个班上等等。希望能做一个保持理想主义倾向的创作者！


B: One perspective is that offline decentralized organizations with specific goals are currently very challenging to sustain in the long term or even establish. The difficulty mainly lies in the contradictions between the loose structure of decentralization and the efficient conditions required under capitalism. However, decentralization might be somewhat achievable in the context of specific art projects or exhibitions, for example.

For future work, I will focus on a project titled “Ship Mountain – Are you on board? (Part 1) An Investigation on Becoming a Distant-Water Fishing Ship Crew Member”, which is about distant-water fishing. This industry is very interesting to me. In China, there are only two major distant-water fishing bases: Weihai in Shandong and Zhoushan in Zhejiang, where I am from. I hope to first understand the ecosystem of grassroots employees in this industry and then directly participate in the work on the ships, conducting covert research as an artist.

Apart from that, I’ll be writing my graduation thesis, planning to apply for a PhD, continuing to work with Yulin and TT on WSS, collaborating with Jack on the artist-led curatorial project Small-Time Project, applying for exhibitions/residencies/grants, and looking for a job, among other things. I hope to remain an idealistic creator!




Ship Mountain，文字，2023
Ship Mountain, text，2023