Isabelle Cornaro：Exploring"Reality"

伊莎贝尔·科纳罗: 在多媒介实验和跨文化交流中探索“真实”

Isabelle Cornaro: Exploring"Reality"in Multi-media Experiments and Cross-cultural Communication

Interviewer: 陈泉池 Starry
Date: 15/06/2024

Keywords: symbol / art history / cross-cultural context

伊莎贝尔·科纳罗个展

展览时间 Duration：2024年5月26日—7月14日
策展人 Curator：张震中 Damien Zhang
展览地点 Location：今日美术馆1号馆4层

今日美术馆正在呈现法国艺术家伊莎贝尔·科纳罗（Isabelle Cornaro）亚洲范围内首个重要机构个展。

伊莎贝尔·科纳罗有着多重身份，既是当代艺术家，也从事着策展和教育工作。她有着深厚的艺术史学科的背景，作品多从艺术史中探寻符号和再现体系，以次挑战观众对于艺术品的感知。她的创作媒介非常多样化，从绘画、雕塑、装置到电影，她常常以多样和巧妙的方式将其并置，再进行改造和创作，将传统的表现方式和现代观念进行融合。在她的作品中，观众可以感受到跨文化的背景和她作品中蕴含的审慎、思辨且带有历史厚度的力量。

本次展览由张震中策展，通过四大系列的总共27件作品，全景式地展现了科纳罗标志性的大型雕塑装置以及她在架上与影像领域的探索。展览回顾了科纳罗十余年艺术生涯的作品，并展现了一件受到今日美术馆特别委任最新完成且首次公开亮相的大型在地创作装置作品。

Today Art Museum is currently showcasing the first significant institutional solo exhibition in Asia by French artist Isabelle Cornaro.

Isabelle Cornaro is a contemporary artist, curator, and educator. With a profound background in art history, explores different systems of reproduction and symbols in art history through her works, challenging the way viewers perceive artworks. Her creation media are highly diverse, encompassing painting, sculpture, installation, and film. She frequently juxtaposes and reworks these media in varied and ingenious ways, blending traditional forms of expression with modern concepts. In her works, viewers can sense the cross-cultural context and the careful, contemplative, and historically rich power.

Curated by Damien Zhang, this exhibition features 27 works across four major series, providing a panoramic view of Cornaro's iconic large-scale sculptural installations and her explorations in painting and film. The exhibition reviews over a decade of Cornaro's artistic career and showcases a newly commissioned large-scale site-specific installation, publicly displayed for the first time, completed especially for the Today Art Museum.

阿那亚大地艺术节展览现场，2023，中国河北
Installation view at Aranya Plein Air, 2023, Hebei, China

I：Isabelle Cornaro ｜ Z：今日美术馆馆长张然

A: 此次邀请伊莎贝尔·科纳罗在在今日美术馆展出，有着什么样的缘起和考量？在此次合作中，是否有特别珍贵或者印象深刻的片段？

A: What was the reason and consideration behind inviting Isabelle Cornaro to exhibit at the Today Art Museum? Were there any particularly valuable or memorable moments during this collaboration?

Z: 最初是策展人Damien张震中向我介绍了科纳罗的作品，给我留下了深刻的印象。科纳罗在她深厚的艺术史背景下一直对“原本的绘画和图像究竟意味着什么”进行深刻的探索。这样的实践在中国的机构展览中很少被呈现，也很难得。同时，我们希望能够在中法建交60周年之际，通过伊莎贝尔·科纳罗的亚洲首个展览为中法文化合作领域人文交流呈现一个很好的开端。

令我印象深刻的是Isabelle带我逛潘家园（笑），在这之前我从没去过。这次展览我们特别委托科纳罗在地创作一件大型艺术装置作品，也因此特地去了北京地道的“跳蚤市场”采购。她将这些日常旧物融入到这件新作中，将中国明代山水画中风景的二维图案转化为三维结构，展现了穿越400年的中西文化碰撞。

Z: Initially, it was curator Damien who introduced me to Cornaro's work, which left me a deep impression.
With her profound background in art history, Cornaro has consistently explored the fundamental meanings of "original painting and imagery." Such practices are rarely presented in institutional exhibitions in China and are quite unique. At the same time, we hope that Cornaro's first solo exhibition in Asia will mark a significant beginning for cultural exchange and cooperation between China and France on the occasion of the 60th anniversary of the establishment of diplomatic relations between the two countries.

What impressed me was Isabelle taking me to Panjiayuan (laughs), a place I had never visited before. For this exhibition, we specially commissioned Cornaro to create a large-scale art installation on-site, which explains why we went to Beijing's authentic "flea market" for materials. She incorporated these everyday old objects into her new work, transforming the two-dimensional patterns of landscapes on a Chinese painting in the Ming Dynasty into three-dimensional structures, showcasing a cultural collision between East and West spanning 400 years.

A: 此次在今日美术馆的同名个展是您在亚洲的首个机构个展，也是“中法文化之春”的重要展览，在中法两国建交建交60周年之际，您对本次展览有什么特别的设想或者期待？

A: This exhibition at Today Art Museum is your first institutional solo exhibition in Asia and a significant part of the "Croisements " celebrating the 60th anniversary of diplomatic relations between China and France. Are there any special plans or expectations you have for this exhibition?

I: 我很高兴受到馆长张然的邀请在今日美术馆举办展览，并与美术馆的团队以及策展人张震中合作。对我来说，能有机会参与到关于东西方文化关系的项目意义重大，所以在这次展览中我也创作了两件与西方风景画和中国古代山水画有关的全新作品。此外，这次展览也是我多年来不同作品系列的回顾展，我希望观众可以通过展览更了解我的作品和我想传达的理念。当然，通过美术馆的团队和策展人的努力，展览也收获了非常好的反响。

I: I was very happy to be invited by Director Jessica Zhang to do a show at the Museum and to work with the museum’s team and Damien Zhang, the curator of the show. It was meaningful to me to propose a project about the relationship between Western and Eastern cultures, and I decided to propose two new productions related to Western and Chinese classical landscape paintings. Besides, this show is also a retrospective of different bodies of works I realized through the years, and I hope the whole will appear articulated and clear to the audience that will discover my work. I know very good communications were done around the show by the Museum’s team and by Damien Zhang.

_{“伊莎贝尔·科纳罗个展”展览现场，伊莎贝尔·科纳罗，“风景XVI”，着色桦木胶合板、各种现成物品，2024，今日美术馆}_{Installation view at Isabelle Cornaro Solo exhibition, Isabelle Cornaro, Paysages XVI，Painted birch plywood, various found objects, 2024，Today Art Museum}

A: “风景XVI”是为了此次展出特别委任的作品，不同于此系列之前由西方古典风景画带来的灵感，此次您研究了中国的古代山水画，因为中西方风景画的方法论和技法有很大的差异，在创作的过程中，您有哪些相同或不同的思考和体验？

A: “Paysages XVI” is a specially commissioned work specially commissioned piece for this exhibition. Unlike previous works in this series that you draw inspiration from Western classical landscape painting, this time you explored ancient Chinese landscape art, Given the significant methodological and technical differences between Western and Chinese landscape painting, what similar or different thoughts and experiences did you have during the creation process?

I: 在90年代接受艺术史训练时，我曾研究过中国山水画，而这个新项目让我有机会进一步深入学习相关的内容。我发现一些中国与西方古典山水画有相似之处，比如引导观众穿越景深的方式。在西方绘画中，这种景深是通过透视系统来创造的；而在中国古典山水画中，据我所理解或体验到的，景深更多的是通过非常小的元素，比如人物、船只、棚屋等来实现的，你需要在纵向或横向展开的长卷景观中寻找这些元素。

为了实现我在展览现场创作的两件新作品，我在北京采购了一些材料。我们在跳蚤市场里寻找那些在我看来能代表中国文化中某些功能和传统的物件，比如说一些与书法相关的物件。

I: I studied Chinese landscape when being trained in art history back in the 90’s, and this new project was an opportunity to dig further into it. I discovered some similarities with the Western classical landscape paintings, like a way of leading the viewer through the depth of the landscape. In the Western case, this depth is created by the perspective system and, as far as I understood or experienced it in the classical Chinese landscape paintings, it's more about very small elements (characters, boats, sheds, etc) that you have to search for in a very long landscape that unfolds either vertically or horizontally.

For the two new works I realized in the exhibition space, I sourced the materials in Beijing. We've been visiting the flea market to find objects that, for me, were representative of some uses and traditions in Chinese culture. I found some objects related to calligraphy for instance.

_{“伊莎贝尔·科纳罗个展”展览现场，伊莎贝尔·科纳罗，“风景XVI”，着色桦木胶合板、各种现成物品，2024，今日美术馆
Installation view at Isabelle Cornaro Solo exhibition, Isabelle Cornaro, Paysages XVI，Painted birch plywood, various found objects, 2024，Today Art Museum}

A: 您在“风景”系列中将二维绘画转化为三维装置的方法，也涉及对观众在艺术空间中的观看方式的反思，这种方式受到机构甚至整个社会系统中权力动态的影响。您在新作中是如何回应这一问题的？

A: Your approach of transferring two-dimensional painting into a three-dimensional installation in “Paysage” series also involved the reflection on the audience’s way of seeing in an art space that is influenced by the power dynamics in the institutional or even the whole social system, how you respond to this issue by involving various materials in your new work?

I: “风景”系列确实是对观众的视线以及在装置中身体性存在的反思。它也与观众接触作品的语境有关——作品所展示的机构的权力动态、我们的社会系统、文化遗产等。

西方的透视法通过理性的网格和理想的视角来表现世界，而我希望通过我使用的多种媒介（装置、雕塑、绘画、电影），可以让无论是西方还是中国的观众，都能理解这些系列作品围绕文化遗产、翻译（例如从图像到物体）、原创与复制、主观性与身份等概念所提出的论述。

I: “The Paysage series” is indeed a reflection of the audience’s gaze and the presence of the body inside the installations. It is also related to the context in which the audience approaches the works - the power dynamics of the institution in which the works are represented, of our social systems, of our cultural heritage.

For instance, the Western perspective represents the world through a rational grid and an ideal point of view. I hope that through the multiplicity of mediums I use (installation, sculpture, painting, film), the audience, whether Western or Chinese, understands that the various series of works propose a discourse articulated around the notions of cultural heritages, translations (from images to objects for instance), originals and copies, subjectivity and identity, etc.

_{“伊莎贝尔·科纳罗个展”展览现场，伊莎贝尔·科纳罗，“风景XV”，桦木胶合板、黄铜、铝板、各种现成物品，2024，今日美术馆
Installation view at Isabelle Cornaro Solo exhibition, Isabelle Cornaro, Paysages XV，Birch plywood, brass,

aluminium sheet, various found objects, 2024，Today Art Museum}

A: “班吉和乌图班吉河周围的大草原”将您关于中非共和国的个人记忆与的历史殖民叙事并置起来。这是您在图像呈现和技法上的早期实验之一，您认为这一系列的作品在亚洲首个机构展览中再次展出，在当下对您自己以及观众，特别是中国观众，有何意义？

A: “Savane autour de Bangui et le fleuve Utubangui” involves your personal memory in Central African Republic in juxtaposition with the historical narrative of colonization. As it is one of your earliest experiments on image representation and technique, how do you think the redisplay of this series of works in your first institutional solo exhibition in Asia, makes sense for yourself and today’s audience, especially in China?

I: 一开始策展人提出举办回顾性展览的意见，以此展示我不同时期创作的各种作品（铸件、电影、版画、装置、绘画）。“班吉和乌图班吉河周围的大草原”是一件非常有亲密性和开创性的作品，这是我第一次将现成品融入到我的创作之中。而这些非常私人的物品来源于我母亲的珠宝，我用它们来代表我长大的地方（靠近班吉）的中非共和国景观，暗喻法国在非洲长期的殖民势力。

对策展人和我来说，把这组作品放在展览初端展示非常重要，因为它是“风景”系列的起点，可以用来为同一空间内和展览后续的两个装置作品提供一些背景信息。在“大草原”和“风景”系列中，我都使用了富有历史、记忆和情感的现成品，将它们以景观式的构图展示。它们既可以被理解为真实的物体，也可以作为抽象构图中的视觉元素。

展示“大草原”系列对我在中国的首个机构个人展览非常重要，因为这个系列可能会在中国引起一些共鸣，因为中国与非洲建立了重要的商业关系。策展人和我尽力以最清晰的方式呈现“班吉和乌图班吉河周围的大草原”和“风景”系列。一些作品由于层次丰富，需要一定的解读才能更好的帮助观众理解，但我仍希望这些作品可以作为整体视觉独立存在，即使没有背景知识的介绍，它们的美感也可以以另一种方式打动观众。

I：It was Damien Zhang’s idea to do a retrospective show that would present various bodies of works (castings, films, prints, installations, paintings) from different periods of time. “Savane autour de Bangui et le fleuve Utubangui” is a very intimate and seminal work because it was my first use of found objects. They were personal objects (my mother's jewelry) I used to represent Central African landscapes where I grew up (near Bangui), in a way to comment on the long-time French colonial presence in Africa.

Both for Damien and I, it was important to show this work first, as it was a starting point for the Paysages series, to contextualize the two installations that are presented in the same room and later in the show. Both in Savanes and in Paysages, I used found objects loaded with history, memory and affects, displayed in landscape-like compositions, in a way they can be understood both as real objects and as graphical elements in abstract compositions.

It was essential to present this Savanes series for my first institutional solo exhibition in China, where it might resonate in a particular way, as the country has developed important commercial relationships with Africa.Damien and I tried to present Savane autour de Bangui and the Paysages series in the clearest possible way. And I’m happy we received great feedback from the audience. Some works, because they are very layered, need explanations – even very short and simple ones - to be approached in their entirety. That said, I hope they also work for themselves, as visual proposals, so that even without their contexts, their aesthetics trigger the viewers in an appealing way.

_{“伊莎贝尔·科纳罗个展”展览现场，伊莎贝尔·科纳罗，“班吉和乌图班吉河周围的大草原”系列，34×49cm，摄影，2007，今日美术馆

_{Installation view at Isabelle Cornaro Solo exhibition, Isabelle Cornaro,“Savane autour de Bangui et le fleuve Utubangui”, 34×49cm，photography, 2007, Today Art Museum}}

A: 您提到您和策展人希望展览更具回顾性，那么您是否想展示您的灵感从更个人的感知转向了更以艺术史为导向的过程？

A: You mentioned that you and the curator wanted the exhibition be more retrospective. Did you intend to show that your inspiration transferred from a more personal perception to more art-history-oriented?

I: 我的灵感最初来源于个人经历。但这些个人经历也属于集体历史，是其见证。因其作为历史背景的一部分，我认为人们也可以将这些经历视为自己的故事。这就是为什么我开始在跳蚤市场收集现成品，这些物品可以说是各种特定历史的见证——主要是来自西方语境的，无论是个人的还是集体的。

I: I first drew my inspiration from a personal experience. But this personal experience belongs to a collective history, it witnesses it. And, as part of a historical context, I think people could make these stories theirs. This is why I started to collect found objects in flea markets, that are, let's say, witnesses of various specific histories – mainly from the Western context, whether personal or collective.

_{“伊莎贝尔·科纳罗个展”展览现场，伊莎贝尔·科纳罗，“风景XV”，桦木胶合板、黄铜、铝板、各种现成物品，2024，今日美术馆
Installation view at Isabelle Cornaro Solo exhibition, Isabelle Cornaro, Paysages XV，Birch plywood, brass, aluminium sheet, various found objects, 2024，Today Art Museum}

A: 您在创作过程中是如何把握对各种符号的化用的，你是否会如何深入研究和分析每个物件在不同的语境中可能代表的意义？您认为赋予观众自由观看和解读的权利和创作者的思考和自主权之间是互相促成的吗？

A: How do you handle the appropriation of various symbols in your creative process, such as researching and analyzing the possible meanings each object might represent in different contexts? Do you think granting viewers the freedom to watch and interpret is complementary to the creator's thoughts and autonomy?

I: 我使用的物品和图像并不是符号性的。观众可以辨认出它们的功能以及它们所关联的文化、历史或情感。与其说是符号，不如说它们是某些时刻在某些地理区域地缘政治话语的见证。

作品的叙述围绕着我的西方文化背景，但我认为任何观众都可以接触到这个背景并了解它。同样重要的是，作品呈现的也是一种视觉叙事，不一定需要通过语言来表达。装置或者铸件就像任何绘画的视觉一样，观众可以欣赏其图案和颜色的构成。对我来说，有些东西保持在语言之下是至关重要的。

I: The objects and images I use are not symbolic. The audience can recognize their function, and what cultural history or what affects they relate to. Rather than symbols, they are witnesses of certain moments, geographical areas, and geopolitical contexts.

The narrative of the works is about my Western cultural context, and I think any audience can have access to this context, and get to know it. But, again, it is also a visual narrative, that doesn’t necessarily need to be articulated or verbalized to exist. It can also be like any formal painting, in which you appreciate the composition of the patterns and colors. It's vital for me that some things remain below verbal language.

_{“伊莎贝尔·科纳罗个展”展览现场，伊莎贝尔·科纳罗，“风景XV”，桦木胶合板、黄铜、铝板、各种现成物品，2024，今日美术馆
_{Installation view at Isabelle Cornaro Solo exhibition, Isabelle Cornaro, Paysages XV，Birch plywood, brass, aluminium sheet, various found objects, 2024，Today Art Museum}}

_{“伊莎贝尔·科纳罗个展”展览现场，

伊莎贝尔·科纳罗，“序列 III #3”，着色树脂，今日美术馆，2021}
Installation view at Isabelle Cornaro Solo exhibition, Isabelle Cornaro，Séquence III (#3), Tinted resin，Today Art Museum，2021

A: 您的浮雕作品给人以介乎装置和影像之间的质感，您是怎样考虑作品与空间、身体、视觉之间的互动关系的？

A: Your relief works convey a texture that lies between installation and imagery. How do you consider the interaction between your works and the space, body encounter, and visual perception?

I: 展览中展示的“序列”铸件是独立的雕塑作品，以特定的方式陈列在美术馆的空间里。虽然它们来自同一个模具，但它们的展示方式由垂直和水平方式构成。

这种陈列方式就像一种视觉语言的游戏，一句话在不同的墙面上展开。你会看到一个铸件中的图案，在另一个铸件中再次出现，但它的框架和方向有所不同。

将铸件安装在墙上的这种场域特定的构图创造了第二层意义和第二种视觉层次。当这个系列作品首次在巴黎橘园美术馆展出时，所有作品都是垂直展示的。而在这里，我希望再次在空间中尝试它们的排列方式。对于观众来说，观赏这些作品是相当具有挑战性的，因为它们乍看起来是相同的，却并不完全相同——它们的尺寸各异，物体的构图也以各种方式被框定。我希望这可以让观众体验以不同的方式看待同一件事物。

I: The casting “Séquence” presented in the show are autonomous sculptural works displayed in a specific way in the museum room. Although they come from the same mold, some are presented vertically, and some are presented horizontally.

This display functions like a sort of visual language play, a sentence unfolding on the different walls. You go from a pattern that you see in one of the castings, then it appears again in another casting, but framed and orientated in a different way. It's a visual play that we create when installing the works.

This site-specific composition of the castings on the walls creates a second layer of meaning, a second visual layer. When this series of works was first exhibited at the Musée de l'Orangerie in Paris, all the works were presented vertically. Here, I wanted to play more with their organization in the space. For the audience, it's quite challenging to encounter these works, as they first seem to be the same but aren’t fully – their sizes vary, and the compositions of objects are framed in various ways. It's a way of triggering the audience's attention and underlining that there are different ways of looking at the same thing.

_{“L'intervalle des images”展览现场，伊莎贝尔·科纳罗，《序列 III 》，着色树脂，橘园博物馆，法国巴黎，2021}

Installation view at L’intervalle des images, # Contrepoint 6, Isabelle Cornaro, Séquence III (#3), Tinted resin, Musée de l'Orangerie, Paris, France, 2021

A: 您的影像作品通过镜头展现物件的质感，在静止、闪烁、循环、延时中似乎又隐藏着某种叙事，给观众以梦的感知。您的灵感来源是什么，又是如何看待影像以及其他媒介作品中的叙事性和感知性的结合的？

A: Your video works showcase the texture of objects through the lens, seemingly imbued with a narrative within the stillness, flickers, loops and time-lapse, giving viewers a sense of dreaming. What is your inspiration, and how do you view the combination of narrative and perceptiveness in both video and works of other mediums?

I: 影像作品展示的物品与我在装置和铸件中使用的物品基本相同。当我拍摄它们时，就像在一个小型工作室中进行布置。我会把物品像一个小装置一样有序地安排好，然后进行拍摄。对我来说，从远处拍摄时要捕捉它们的轮廓感，从近处拍摄时要捕捉它们的材质感。这种材质感是至关重要的，因为它赋予了影片一种触觉的特质，让观众感觉仿佛可以触摸这些物品。

影片的剪辑并不是叙事导向的，而是更强调视觉的。它们没有讲述任何故事，且所有影片都很短。就像在装置作品中一样，叙事来自于被表现的物品本身。这种视觉的非叙事剪辑受到结构主义电影的启发，这一方法在70年代美国的实验电影中非常重要，当时的艺术家通过对称性、相同图像的重复、数学规则来计算它们的时长等方式进行影像实验。

I: The video works show more or less the same objects as the ones I use in the installations and in the castings. When I film them, it's really like a little studio set-up. I organize the objects like a small installation, in a composed way, and then I film them. For me, it is important to get a sense of their silhouette when they are filmed from far away, and a sense of their materiality when they are filmed from close. This materiality is essential because it gives the films their tactile aspect, you feel you can touch the objects.

The editing of the films is not narrative-oriented, it is formal. No story is developed, and all films are pretty short. Just like in the installations, the narrative comes with the objects themselves, that are represented. This formal non-narrative editing is inspired by structural cinema, which was very important in experimental cinema in the USA in the 70’s. It plays with symmetries, repetitions of the same images, mathematical rules to calculate their durations, etc.

_{伊莎贝尔·科纳罗，《日以作夜》（影像静帧），16毫米胶片转数码，彩色，无声，16/9，1'21"，2017

Isabelle Cornaro, Day for Night, 16mm film transfered to digital, color, silent, 16/9, 1'21"，2017}

_{伊莎贝尔·科纳罗，《欢庆》（影像静帧），16毫米胶片转数码，彩色，无声，16/9，5'45"，2013}_{Isabelle Cornaro, Celebration， 16mm film transfered to digital, color, silent, 16/9，5'45"，2013}

A: 在您的绘画、影像和装置作品中，往往有连续的视觉元素作为线索和呼应，使用不同媒介进行“再现”与转译，二维与三维的转换，从现实到抽象再到更表现主义的呈现，是否可以视为您对“何谓真实”的一种探索？

A: In your paintings, videos, and installations, there are often continuous visual elements serving as clues and echoes. Using different media to "represent" and translate, from two-dimensional to three-dimensional or vice versa, style ranging from more realistic to abstract, and then to expressionist depiction, can this be seen as your exploration of "truth"?

I: 我喜欢这个问题，没有人曾问过它，尽管它确实是我的创作核心。我正是试图通过探索真理是什么，从而持有一种道德性的视角，换句话说，我会问自己：我们所看到的事物是否有一个真实的、本质的或固定的身份？我相信一个物品或图像的意义取决于我们看它的视角。如果你从远处拍摄某人，这个人看起来像一个轮廓；如果你从头到脚拍摄同一个人，你得到的是一个人的形象；而如果你特写拍摄这个人的手或手臂，那么得到的图像就展示了人体。

因此，你对主体的阐释会根据你观看它的角度而改变。我试图通过使用各种媒介和描绘手法来展现看待同一事物的不同方式，或者说，通过在不同媒介之间使用转译系统，来实现一种对我们所见事物的非自然化，保持距离并暗示物件没有固定的身份。我的想法是去身份化，意指事物在某种程度上具有多重身份。

I: I love this question because no one ever asked it, although it is indeed central to my practice. It's exactly that, I try to have a sort of moral point of view, let's say, through the exploration of what truth might be, by asking: is there a truth, a nature or a fixed identity of the things we look at? I believe the meaning of an object or an image depends on the point of view from which we look at it. If you take a picture of someone from far away, this person appears as a silhouette, if you take a picture of the same person from head to toe, you get the image of a person, and if you do a close-up of this same person, for instance of his/her hand or of his/her arm, then the resulting image shows a body.

So your interpretation of the subject changes according to the point of view you took to look at it. What I try to achieve, by using various mediums and various ways of depicting the same things, or, let’s say, by using systems of translations in between the different media, is a sort of denaturalization of what we are looking at, to take a distance and to imply that there is no fixed identity. My idea is to de-identify things, to imply that things, somehow, have various identities.

“伊莎贝尔·科纳罗个展”展览现场，伊莎贝尔·科纳罗，“再现”系列，180×300cm，布面丙烯，2018，今日美术馆

Installation view at Isabelle Cornaro Solo exhibition, Isabelle Cornaro, Reproductions, 180×300cm,
acrylic spray paint on coated canvas, 2018, Today Art Museum

A: 在捕捉图像的设备和影像处理技术日益多样的当下，对艺术史的回看与关照对您来说意味着什么，对于您来说，历史、日常和技术的关系是什么样的？

A: In an era where image-capturing devices and processing techniques are increasingly diverse, what does reflecting on and engaging with art history mean to you? What is the relationship between history, the every day, and technology?

I: 最近，我尝试在我的影片中使用算法来进行随机剪辑，我对此非常感兴趣。但同时，对我来说，继续反思艺术史也是至关重要的，因为它为这些新技术提供了背景。我认为，我们应当记住那些用来创造新图像的所有新技术都属于特定的历史、社会和文化背景。

就我尝试过的人工智能而言，当你写提示词来创建图像时，不知为何你总是得到一些非常著名且常见的艺术史图像，例如梵高风格的图像。我觉得它目前的运算太嵌入于主流艺术史，基本上是由19世纪和20世纪初西方艺术家创作的绘画和雕塑。我认为，未来这些技术的使用将变得更加精细、复杂和富有创意。

I: Recently, in my films, I've been working with algorithms to produce aleatory editing. I'm very interested in it. But it is also essential to me, to keep reflecting on art history as it gives a context to these new technologies. I think it's important to remember that all these new technologies we use to produce new images belong to specific historical, social, and cultural contexts.

For the moment, as far as I've tried AI, when you write a prompt to create an image, somehow you always end up with very famous, very common images of art history, images in the style of Van Gogh for instance. For now, I find it too embedded in mainstream art history, basically the paintings and sculptures produced by Western artists of the 19th century and early 20th century. I think that, the use of these technologies will be way more refined, complex, and inventive in the future.

_{“未来简史”展览现场，伊莎贝尔·科纳罗，卢浮宫博物馆，法国巴黎，2016

Installation view at Une brève histoire de l’avenir, Isabelle Cornaro, Musée du Louvre, Paris, France, 2016}

A: 除了艺术家之外，您的身份还有策展人与艺术教育工作者，这些实践是如何与您的思考和创作相辅相成的？

A: Aside from being an artist, you also work as curators and educators, how do all these practices promote your research, creation, and reflection?

I: 这两种实践对我来说都非常重要，并且与我的创作有很多共通之处，因为我会使用现成品进行装置、雕塑和电影作品的创作。而当我通过策展与其他艺术家的作品合作时，情境会有点相似，因为我使用艺术家们的图像和物品，并以一种对大家都有意义的方式展示它们。

教学则有些不同。它让我能够深入了解他人的创作过程。我试图以一种与学生实践有机结合的方式理解他们的作品，以便在他们的个人创作过程中给予帮助，而不是将我对艺术或艺术应该是什么的想法强加给他们的实践。尝试理解其他人的创作过程是一种去中心化的方式，我也喜欢在策展时这种去中心化的过程。

I: These two practices are very important to me, and they resonate a lot with my work, as I work with found objects that I compose together in installations, sculptures, and films. When you curate and work with the works of other artists, it is a bit similar, in the sense that you use their images and objects, and present them in a way that, hopefully, will be meaningful to everyone.

Teaching is a bit different. It allows me to dive into the working process of someone else. I try to understand my student’s works in a way that is organic enough to their practices so that I can help them in their personal creative process instead of applying to their practices my own ideas about art, or about what art should be. It's a way to decentralize myself and to try to understand other creating processes. I also like this process of decentralization when I do curating.

A: 您在巴黎、日内瓦和阿姆斯特丹等不同的城市生活和工作，它们不同的文化艺术生态对您的创作有什么样的影响？

A: You have lived and worked in various cities such as Paris, Geneva, and Amsterdam. How have their different cultural and artistic ecosystems influenced your work?

I: 了解不同的观点、发现不同的艺术场景、不同的社会和文化背景、不同的艺术历史总是很棒的。我无法明确的说出具体是什么影响了我的作品，但我知道这些体验总体上是非常滋养我的创作的。

I: It's always great to get to know different points of view, to discover different art scenes, different social and cultural contexts, and different art histories. I could not pinpoint precisely what influenced my work, but I know it is generally very nourishing.

_{“阵痛”展览现场，伊莎贝尔·科纳罗，朗布依埃城堡，法国朗布依埃，2023
Installation view at Paroxysme, Isabelle Cornaro, Château de Rambouillet, Paroxysme, Rambouillet, 2023}

A: 您认为当代艺术在促进不同文化之间的理解和交流上能够起到什么样的作用？您在未来还会有兴趣进行中国和亚洲文化相关的创作吗？

A: What role do you believe contemporary art could play in fostering cultural understanding and dialogue? Are you interested in creating more work related to Chinese and Asian culture?

I: 我相信当代艺术和艺术史可以帮助我们理解我们周围越来越多且极具冲击力的图像。它们可以在分析、解码和语境化这些图像方面发挥重要作用。把我们遇到的所有新视觉系统放入一个批判性的视角中是很重要的。

基于这个理念，脱离主要与西方文化相关的作品体系，从中国古典山水画中汲取灵感，对我来说非常有趣。我通常希望从我的视角出发，但避免挪用他人的声音，这也是为什么我作品的主题主要与我所熟悉的背景有关。然而，我相信我们可以在不进行文化挪用的情况下更多地研究其他文化，通过一种讨论、评论和进行真正文化交流的方式，一种不具有侵略性的方式。总的来说我很愿意创作更多与亚洲文化相关的作品。

I: I believe contemporary art and art history can help us understand all the images we are increasingly and dramatically surrounded by. They can play a significant role in giving us tools to analyze, decode, and contextualize these images. To put all these new visual systems we encounter into perspective is important.

Following this idea, it was very interesting for me to take a step out of my body of works that are mainly related to Western culture, and to take inspiration from Chinese classical landscape paintings.
I usually want to talk from my point of view, to avoid appropriating others’ voices, that's why my main subject relates to the context I know. However, I believe it is possible to work more on other contexts without doing appropriation. There is a way of discussing, commenting, and practicing a real cultural exchange, that is hopefully not intrusive. I would love to create more works related to Asian culture.

_{“伊莎贝尔·科纳罗个展”开幕式现场

“Isabelle Cornaro Solo exhibition”，Opening ceremony}

_{（左）法国驻华使馆文化、教育与科学事务公使衔

参赞裴国良与（右）张然馆长}Left: Nicolas Pillerel, Minister Counselor for Cultural, Educational, and Scientific Affairs of the French Embassy in China. Right: Jessica Zhang, Director of Today Art Museum.

A: 您在展览开幕上被授予了法国兰西共和国艺术与文学勋章，可以分享一下今日美术馆过往中法文化交流的展览和活动吗？在您看来促进文化交流对于美术馆来说有着怎样的重要性，美术馆又如何能通过展览项目更好地实现文化交流的目的？

A: At the exhibition opening, you were awarded the Order of Arts and Letters of the French Republic. Can you share the past exhibitions and activities on Sino-French culture exchange with us? In your view, what importance does promoting cultural exchange hold for museums, and how can museums better achieve the goal of cultural exchange through exhibition projects?

Z: 时至今日，艺术作为文化交流的使者，不仅展示了文化的多样性，还为国际合作搭建了重要的平台。作为中国第一家民营美术馆的馆长，我深感责任之重，几年间，我与团队在努力推动中国当代艺术的发展的同时，也持续关注国际化的艺术交流。

在过去几年，我有幸参与策划了多个中法文化交流项目。比如联合法国驻华大使馆以及蔡冠深基金会推出的中法当代艺术奖，也在美术馆为一中一法两位获奖者举办了双个展；法国女性艺术家玛莉·德维尔潘的作品也是在我们的策划下首次来到中国。

我很感谢被授予法兰西共和国艺术与文学领域殊荣骑士勋章这份荣誉。中国和法国有着悠久的历史和灿烂的文化，有着长期的友谊和更加美好的合作未来。我很荣幸可以在这样的时代，带领着满载热情的团队，一同为今日美术馆和中国当代艺术创造更多的可能性而努力。

Z: Till this day, art, as an ambassador of cultural exchange, not only showcases cultural diversity but also provides an important platform for international cooperation. As the director of China's first private art museum, I deeply feel the weight of this responsibility. Over the years, my team and I have been working hard to promote the development of contemporary Chinese art while continuously focusing on international art exchanges.

In the past few years, I have had the privilege of participating in the planning of several Sino-French cultural exchange projects. For example, in collaboration with the French Embassy in China and the Fondation Choi, we launched the China-France Contemporary Art Award and hosted dual solo exhibitions at the museum for the Chinese and French winners. The works of French female artist Marie de Villepin also made their debut in China under our curation.

I am very grateful to be awarded the Ordre des Arts et des Lettres, a distinguished honor from the French Republic. China and France share a long history and a rich culture, with a longstanding friendship and an even brighter future for cooperation. I am honored to lead a passionate team in such an era, working together to create more possibilities for the Today Art Museum and contemporary Chinese art.

_{环保恋爱——苏珊娜赫斯基、童义欣作品展，展览现场，2022年，今日美术馆

Installation view at Environment mon amour: Exhibition of Suzanne Husky and Tong Yixin, 2022, Today Art Museum}